Date:       Mon, 21 Sep 92 13:05:22 EST
Errors-To:  Comp-privacy Error Handler <comp-privacy-request@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
From:       Computer Privacy Digest Moderator  <comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To:         Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:    Computer Privacy Digest V1#079

Computer Privacy Digest Mon, 21 Sep 92              Volume 1 : Issue: 079

Today's Topics:				Moderator: Dennis G. Rears

                 Misconceptions About Rights of Privacy
                    Re:  Address required on checks]
                     Re: Address required on checks
                     Re: Address required on checks
                     Re: Address required on checks
                     Re: Address required on checks
                     Re: Address required on checks
                     Re: Address required on checks
                 Re:    Computer Privacy Digest V1#078
                Re: SSN and Airline Antitrust Settlement

   The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the
  effect of technology on privacy.  The digest is moderated and
  gatewayed into the USENET newsgroup comp.society.privacy
  (Moderated).  Submissions should be sent to
  comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to
  comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil.
   Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil
  [129.139.160.200].
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrick A. Townson" <ptownson@delta.eecs.nwu.edu>
Subject: Misconceptions About Rights of Privacy
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 23:57:23 CDT


In Volume 1 Issue 078 James Zuchelli <claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@
decwrl.dec.com> writes about being required to supply an address on a
check he wished to use as payment:

> Last year when I bought some books at a local community college they insisted
> that I put my street address on the check. (I have my P.O. Box printed on the
> checks.)  I don't like giving out my address yet they refused to take the
> check unless it had an address.

> At one point they said they needed so "when your check bounces we can come
> find you."

> How much right do you have to not give out your phyusical address,
> how much right do the school bookstores have to refuse your check if
> you street address isn't on it.

> (I finally gave them my work address.)

No merchant (or any other person to whom you are indebted or propose
indebtedness) is required to accept *ANYTHING* as payment for the debt
except the currency of the United States, which it is noted, is legal
tender for all debts, public and private and generally cannot be
refused. 

Even then, they are not necessarily required to accept just any United
States currency you wish to pay with. If they have a sign saying
'nothing larger than twenty dollar bills accepted' then that becomes
part of the terms if you choose to continue the transaction.

They don't have to accept checks, credit cards, money orders,
traveler's checks, IOU's or anything else.  *If* they are being asked
to do you the favor of accepting a written promise of payment at a
later time (which is basically what a check is), then they have the
right to make additional requirements of you, namely assurance that
you can be located should your promise to pay turn out to be
worthless.  It is obviously easier to locate you at a street address
than at a post office box, although post office box rental
applications are public records also, under the Freedom of Information
Act provided the box was used to obtain merchandise and/or services or
for an extension of credit, which it would be in your case since your
box address appears on your check.  

The merchant's contract with most credit card issuers does prohibit
however the aquisition of additional information about you once (that
particular) credit card has been tendered as payment and sales
authorization has been obtained from the card issuer. So you can
rightfully refuse to put your telephone number, address or other ID
on a credit card sales ticket; you cannot refuse to do so on a check
(or some other promise of payment) if requested. You can refuse to do
it with credit cards simply because the card issuer already has your
telephone number, address, SSN and other data on file in consideration
of an extension of credit along with your promise to pay the credit
card issuer.

rudis+@cs.cmu.edu (Rujith S DeSilva) wrote about being required to
give his SSN as part of the airline antitrust settlement.

> The claim forms for the Airline Antitrust Settlement ask for `Social Security
> Number or Tax I.D.'.  I've read the SSN guidelines posted here regularly, but
> this case seems different.  I really don't want to supply my SSN, and I don't
> see why I legally have to.  The terms of the settlement clearly define a
> `Class' of members (loosely, passengers of some airlines during a certain
> period), and say that upon certifying their inclusion in this Class, its
> members are eligible to a share of the settlement.  Why should I
> supply my SSN to certify my claim?

> Any thoughts on this?  The SSN is probably just requested as an
> identifier.  On the other hands, I've had miscellaneous forms rejected
> because of a missing SSN, and I've got tired of explaining my actions
> on the borders of forms.

In this case, you have been instructed by a judge in a court of law to
identify yourself to the Court's satisfaction. The Court will be
satisfied with your SSN and other items requested on the form. You are
not a member of a class simply because you choose to define yourself
as one. The Court will decide, and some method of identifying and
keeping track of who-is-who is essential.

By submitting your claim and nominating yourself as a member of the
class, you placed yourself under the Court's jurisdiction and now will
comply with the Court's instructions. 

Be careful when you refuse to give some item of identification about
yourself such as your SSN when requested. If what you are seeking is
some courtesy or privilege, ie. check cashing, credit, permission to
enter into some contract voluntarily with a business, etc, then they
have the right to make demands upon you in consideration of what it
is you ask of them.

Businesses do NOT have to deal with you provided they do not
discriminate against you for unlawful reasons. They can't take into
consideration your sex, marital status, race, religion or ethnic
origin, etc. They don't even have to accept cash money from you if
there is some element of trust involved (ie car rental, video rental,
lease of an apartment, etc) if they feel you can't be trusted and
their decisiion is based on lawful factors. 

And finally, Peter J. Swanson commented:

> If you can timestamp a series of locations, you can also determine speed
> between those locations.  Of course, we don't have to worry about that
> because none of us break the speed limit, right?

The Indiana Toll Road Authority charges by the number of miles driven
on their road, and they time stamp the ticket when you enter the road
and when you leave it. Best not get from South Bend, Indiana to the
west end (where it connects with the Chicago Skyway) in less time than
driving the speed limit for 80 plus miles would take! They compare the
times and you'll get a speeding ticket right there at the cashier's
window. At least a couple times we've had to sit it out at the little
restaurant nearby for several minutes until we knew enough time had
elapsed to make a 'decent' arrival time.


Patrick A. Townson  ===> T h e   C h e e r f u l   I c o n o c l a s t <===
ptownson@eecs.nwu.edu    ptownson@eris.berkeley.edu   ptownson@cs.bu.edu

[Moderator's Note:  I think this is the best article I've read on this topic
in the last couple of years.  There were lots of articles on this subject
of which I several I am not publishing due to the redunant nature of the
posting.  ._dennis]

------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 18 Sep 92 12:16:34 EDT
From:     Brinton Cooper <abc@brl.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Address required on checks]
Organization:  The US Army Research Laboratory


James Zuchelli <claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com> asks,

>How much right do you have to not give out your phyusical address, how much
>right do the school bookstores have to refuse your check if you street address
>isn't on it.

Ask the question the other way:  If you are selling your stereo or
camera in order to raise money for the semester's textbooks, would you
accept a check from a total stranger when you didn't even know his/her
address?  And what would YOU do when his/her $200 check bounced?

_Brint


------------------------------

From: jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Reply-To: jeffo@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 18:26:07 GMT

James Zuchelli <claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com> writes:
>Last year when I bought some books at a local community college they insisted
>that I put my street address on the check. (I have my P.O. Box printed on the
>checks.)  I don't like giving out my address yet they refused to take the
>check unless it had an address.

A P.O. Box is a legal means to get someone a court notice should they
want to take you to court (the worst case).  For all purposes except
receiving packages from 3rd party shipping agencies (like UPS,
Airborne, etc.)  a P.O.  box is a legal address.

You can also give them a fake address and let the bank deal with you
and let the college deal with you through the bank.  I don't know
about the legality of this, but it can easily be done. For bounced
checks, you'll probably get charged a fee (all banks I know of do
this) and you can deal with the amount of the bounced check later
(again through your bank).

[Moderator's Note:  A couple of folks have mentioned giving out false
addresses, SSNs, and telephone numbers.  While this is one way to avoid
giving out "private" information, what does this say about the integrity
of the person who is doing this?  It is easy to avoid giving out home
addresses and phone numbers (Give work address or PO Boxes).  Privacy is
important but is it more important than ones' integrity? ._dennis]

-- 
-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
-- NeXTmail ok

------------------------------

From: Khan <tmkk@uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 18:28:57 GMT


In article <comp-privacy1.78.1@pica.army.mil> James Zuchelli <claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com> writes:
>
>Last year when I bought some books at a local community college they insisted
>that I put my street address on the check. (I have my P.O. Box printed on the
>checks.)  I don't like giving out my address yet they refused to take the
>check unless it had an address.

Sounds like it's time to get a mail drop (with a "real looking" address)
and have that printed on your checks. ;-) Either that or pay cash (as I
usually do when confronted with this sort of hardheader sales droid).


------------------------------

From: "Glenn R. Stone" <gs26@prism.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Date: 18 Sep 92 19:59:25 GMT
Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu
Organization: The Group W Bench


In <comp-privacy1.78.1@pica.army.mil> claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com (James Zuchelli) writes:

>Last year when I bought some books at a local community college they insisted
>that I put my street address on the check. (I have my P.O. Box printed on the
>checks.)  I don't like giving out my address yet they refused to take the
>check unless it had an address.

So much kaka.  If they want to find you they can go to the PO and sign a 
form and get your address (which you had to give the PO to get the box).
'course, if you move you don't *have* to tell the PO :)

[Moderator's Note:  Postal Regulations require you to.  This is kind of
hard to enforce though. ]

>At one point they said they needed so "when your check bounces we can come
>find you."

Gimme a break.  This is the Marshal's problem. 

>How much right do you have to not give out your phyusical address, how much
>right do the school bookstores have to refuse your check if you street address
>isn't on it.

Pay with a credit card billed to the PO box.  That way if the bookstore gets
kitchy when you want to return something, you can have the bank can the 
charge and make'm eat it.

Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu)
"The function of government is to leave [the individual] alone!" -- Leary

------------------------------

From: David Lesher <wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Date: 19 Sep 1992 00:39:00 GMT
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews abusers - Beltway Annex
Reply-To: David Lesher <wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Others said
# 
# Last year when I bought some books at a local community college they insisted
# that I put my street address on the check. (I have my P.O. Box printed on the
# checks.)  I don't like giving out my address yet they refused to take the
# check unless it had an address.

I solve this with one of several techniques:

	 a) Work address
	    It did not hurt that said address was a gov't building
	    inside a compound guarded by guys with guns. If you showed
	    up and asked about anyone, they'd shrug and point you back
	    out again....

	 b) Pseudo-address.
	    Use something the Post Office understands, even if no one
	    else does. For example, Compu$pend did not want my POB at
	    the airport P.O. so my address became 1234 AMFAC. That's
	    Air Mail Facility to insiders. In the case of a branch, try
	    1234 Oakdale Station, Fargo ND 00000-1234. With each POB
	    having a unique 9 digit zip, this is pretty dependable.
	    Just "test" the address with mail to yourself first.

I also make it point to never show anyone a driver's license.  The only
exceptions are cops & rental car companies. Anyone else gets to see my
passport.

Of course, it's best to avoid trouble later by not bouncing
checks.....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

------------------------------

From: John De Armond <jgd@dixie.com>
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 02:44:53 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com (James Zuchelli) writes:

>At one point they said they needed so "when your check bounces we can come
>find you."

>How much right do you have to not give out your phyusical address, how much
>right do the school bookstores have to refuse your check if you street address
>isn't on it.

You, of course, have an absolute right not to give them your address.  And
of course, they have the right not to accept your payment unless you do.

>(I finally gave them my work address.)

Now you're getting close.  The way to handle it is to simply give them bogus
information.  No problem unless you actually do bounce a check.  Then you
might have a fraud issue to deal with.  Look at it as added incentive to
never bounce a check.

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.


------------------------------

From: "Wm. L. Ranck" <ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Address required on checks
Date: 21 Sep 92 13:44:16 GMT


James Zuchelli (claris!qm!James_Zuchelli@decwrl.dec.com) wrote:
: 
: How much right do you have to not give out your phyusical address,

You have every right to refuse to give out your address.

:how much
: right do the school bookstores have to refuse your check if you street address
: isn't on it.

They have every right to refuse to take your check.  If it worries you then
go to your bank and get out cash to buy your books.

I once had a store refuse to sell me something for cash unless I gave them my
name and address.  I refused, and I have never been back to that store.
Oh, I'm talking about $40 here not something like $10K where they would
have to report it to the government.
--

*******************************************************************************
* Bill Ranck     DoD #496  ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu                            *
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Subject: Re:    Computer Privacy Digest V1#078
From: John Starta <tosh!starta@enuucp.eas.asu.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 09:53:10 MST

rudis+@cs.cmu.edu (Rujith S DeSilva) writes:

> The claim forms for the Airline Antitrust Settlement ask for `Social Security
> Number or Tax I.D.'.  I've read the SSN guidelines posted here regularly, but
> this case seems different.  I really don't want to supply my SSN, and I don't
> see why I legally have to.  The terms of the settlement clearly define a
> `Class' of members (loosely, passengers of some airlines during a certain
> period), and say that upon certifying their inclusion in this Class, its
> members are eligible to a share of the settlement.  Why should I supply my SS
> to certify my claim?

I suspect the claims form is asking for your SSN because of a potential 
monetary settlement. If the company pays, it is required to report that 
payment to the IRS. The IRS will then look to make sure you reported that
payment on your tax return.

john

------------------------------

Organization: Catalogic, Mountain View, California [Voice: 1 415-961-4649]
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 08:56:55 -0800
From: Robert Lenoil <lenoil@catalogic.com>
Subject: Re: SSN and Airline Antitrust Settlement

>The claim forms for the Airline Antitrust Settlement ask for `Social Security
>Number or Tax I.D.'.  I've read the SSN guidelines posted here regularly, but
>this case seems different.  I really don't want to supply my SSN, and I don't
>see why I legally have to...Why should I supply my SSN to certify my claim?

My guess is that any payment you receive under the settlement is considered
taxable income by the IRS, in which case you'd need to supply your SSN.

[Moderator's Note:  Brint Cooper (abc@brl.mil)  also mentioned this.  I
think Pat Townson has the best answer; It is required by the court.  ._dennis]

------------------------------


End of Computer Privacy Digest V1 #079
******************************