Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 11:26:06 EST
Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler <comp-privacy-request@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator <comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V1#119
Computer Privacy Digest Thu, 24 Dec 92 Volume 1 : Issue: 119
Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears
Re: Digital Licenses in NY State
Re: Credit denies millionaire due to credit report
Re: Sallie Mae and SSNs
Privacy Concerns and the So-Called Privacy Advocates
Re: UPS Digital Clipboards
Re: The UPS clipboard
SSN & Gernuglflux!
The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the
effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and
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(Moderated). Submissions should be sent to
comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to
comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil.
Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil
[129.139.160.133].
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From: Stephen M Jameson <sjameson@fergie.dnet.ge.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Licenses in NY State
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:17:01
Organization: General Electric Advanced Technology Labs
Reply-To: sjameson@atl.dnet.ge.com
In article <comp-privacy1.113.6@pica.army.mil> jhess@orion.oac.uci.edu (James Hess) writes:
>>Needless to say, I voted for the candidate who said we need to reduce
>>government rather than the one who wanted to expand it.
>>
>Not to question your politics, but remember that Bush was director of the CIA,
>which is not noted for its concerns for privacy or legality. Ask yourself,
>which parts of government did he propose to reduce or expand? Of course,
>if you run the country off the books, through Ollie North, you can reduce
>the visible government... ;-)
I do question your politics, if you assume offhand that the Republican
candidate was the one most likely to reduce government. Government has
expanded substantially under the previous Republican administrations, and will
doubtless expand at least as substantially under the upcoming Democratic
administration. Any continued expansion of government is a potential threat to
privacy and to all other rights we hold, and is in fact a far more serious
threat than any other non-governmental threats that are discussed in this
group. This is because while you at least have some choice about your dealings
with private organizations, you generally have none about the necessity to deal
with the government, i.e. you are truly forced to provide the information
simply, for example, to earn a living, or even, in the case of the census, for
being here. The Libertarian Party, whose candidate Andre Marrou was on the
ballot in all 50 states, is the only major political group with an unambiguous
and consistent committment to the reduction of government and its concomittant
threats to all of our rights, including the right to privacy.
--
Steve Jameson General Electric Aerospace / Martin Marietta
sjameson@atl.ge.com Advanced Technology Laboratories
Moorestown, New Jersey
****************************************************************************
** . . . but I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow **
** for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that **
** which they defend . . . **
** -- Faramir, "The Two Towers" **
****************************************************************************
------------------------------
From: Stephen M Jameson <sjameson@fergie.dnet.ge.com>
Subject: Re: Credit denies millionaire due to credit report
Date: 23 Dec 92 12:28:27
Organization: General Electric Advanced Technology Labs
Reply-To: sjameson@atl.dnet.ge.com
In article <comp-privacy1.113.8@pica.army.mil> James Davies <jrbd@craycos.com> writes:
>(from an AP wire service story, seen in the Rocky Mountain News 12/11/92)
>
>Jim Clayton, a "mobile home magnate" from Tennessee with a reported net worth
>of $265 million, was recently rejected for a VISA card by the American
>Association of Retired Persons. The reason for the rejection was that
>there had been frequent requests for his credit report. Firms that do
>business with his company often get credit reports on top officers.
>(Business is apparently quite good. :-). After being informed of this, AARP
>manually intervened to issue him a card.
>
>AARP spokesman Ted Bobrow said "One of the important things this points out
>is that any consumer who is turned down for credit needs to find out why.
>It could very well be a mistake."
>
>Apparently AARP didn't learn anything from this.
>
What would you have them learn? I doubt that the credit decision was made by
AARP, but rather by an outside credit evaluation agency hired by them. Any
formula used to evaluate an applicant will have some possibility of error,
particularly since the attribute being judged, credit-worthiness, is somewhat
subjective by itself. They certainly cannot personally re-check every
applicant who is rejected, and can reasonably only be expected to do so when a
rejectee points out what he or she feels is a mistake. I think the statement
reflects the lesson that AARP, Jim Clayton, and anyone else should take from
this: When you think a mistake has damaged _your_ interests, check, because you
may be right.
--
Steve Jameson General Electric Aerospace / Martin Marietta
sjameson@atl.ge.com Advanced Technology Laboratories
Moorestown, New Jersey
****************************************************************************
** . . . but I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow **
** for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that **
** which they defend . . . **
** -- Faramir, "The Two Towers" **
****************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:56:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Niebuhr, BNL CCD, 516-282-3093" <NIEBUHR@bnlcl6.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Sallie Mae and SSNs
I wrote:
> >The problem is that Sallie Mae uses my SSN, not my daughter's, as
> >the account number. I called Sallie Mae and the person on the
> >other side stated that he couldn't do anything about it and that
> >I should address a letter to his supervisor (naturally).
David Ruggiero <osiris@halcyon.halcyon.com> wrote:
>Depends on the type of student loan. If this was a "PLUS" loan, it's
>actually issued to your daughter but guaranteed by you, the parent.
>In this case, SallieMae having *your* SSN makes pretty good sense.
>
>If, however, it was another kind of loan ("Stafford", "GSL", "SLS", etc.),
>this isn't as easy to see. It could be that they want *your* number to
>make it easier to find *her* current address if she later defaults on
>the loan (parents usually being more stable and easier to trace than their
Not quite accurate. I have two student loans, one a PLUS for one daughter
which I am paying half for and the account number in no way resembles my SSN
and neither does her account number (1/2 and 1/2 split). Sallie Mae didn't
even enter into this transaction.
The other one, the Sallie Mae, was originally given by Teachers
Insurance and Annuity Association (TIAA) and placed on the secondary
market where Sallie Mae picked it up for servicing. I don't remember
it being a PLUS loan, though.
Therefore, if both are PLUS loans, why does one financial institution
use my SSN as an account number and the other doesn't? To be fair,
though, the first one wasn't placed on the secondary market.
Dave
Dave Niebuhr Internet: niebuhr@bnl.gov / Bitnet: niebuhr@bnl
Brookhaven National Laboratory Upton, NY 11973 (516)-282-3093
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:03:14 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Niebuhr, BNL CCD, 516-282-3093" <NIEBUHR@bnlcl6.bnl.gov>
Subject: Privacy Concerns and the So-Called Privacy Advocates
A question just crossed my mind. When Caller-ID is in the process
of being instituted in an area, the privacy-mavens scream bloody
murder. Yet, with the known (I suppose) wide-spread usage of SSNs
as identifiers, where are they?
People I talk to are surprised when I tell them that if I knew their
SSN I could find out all kinds of information about them and possibly
do them irreprable harm if I wanted to.
Is this a mis-guided sense of "security" or what? Does it spring
from the original Social Security for being a supplement to retirement
funds and the general public doesn't realize just how much businesses
know about one or can find out if so desired.
I'm not a complete privacy freak, but I do know when to give information
and when not to do so.
Dave
Dave Niebuhr Internet: niebuhr@bnl.gov / Bitnet: niebuhr@bnl
Brookhaven National Laboratory Upton, NY 11973 (516)-282-3093
------------------------------
From: John De Armond <jgd@dixie.com>
Subject: Re: UPS Digital Clipboards
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 23:02:01 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access. The Mouth of the South.
allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>I usually get a brick, wrap it in brown paper, and glue the envelope I get
>from other groups on top of the brick, writing on the envelope 'Delivery
>Refused'. Since the sending company must then pay the extra postage on the
>brick, I seldom get a followup from a company, although one company was stupid
>enough to send me two more notices, so on the third (total) notice from them,
>I wrapped up about four bricks in a small box and glued the envelope on the
>top of this box. I never got another notice from this company!
Your recipient never sees the brick. The PO simply discards any BRM
that is obviously inappropriate. There is also a cap on charges
acrued to any single piece of mail, about 85 cents as I recall. If
you want to return BRM, stick about 4 ounces of paper in it and mail
away.
The reason you didn't get a second solicitation from that company is
direct mail is EXPENSIVE. Postage on a typical 4 ounce bulk mail
piece is about twenty cents. A BRM (business reply mail) piece is
at a minimum 38 cents for the postcard. More for added weight.
Then figure in the cost of printing and packaging the promotionals.
The advertiser does NOT want to mail to anyone who is not a candidate
to reply.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC |Interested in high performance mobility?
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers?
Marietta, Ga | Send ur snail-mail address to
jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta? Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
------------------------------
Apparently-To: mcnc.org!comp-society-privacy
From: Scot Wilcoxon <sewilco@fieldday.mn.org>
Subject: Re: The UPS clipboard
Organization: Self
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:14:10 GMT
>volpe@bart.nosubdomain.nodomain (Christopher R Volpe) writes:
>...
>Consider, also, that the signature may actually be the least valuable
>piece of information in that record. How much could you tell about a
>competitor if you had access to their UPS shipping records? In many
>cases, even the insured value of packages is recorded.
>...
Then let us not hear from the radio systems which Federal Express is using.
--
Scot E. Wilcoxon sewilco@fieldday.mn.org
voice: +1 612-825-2607
------------------------------
Return-Path: <news@SEAS.UCLA.EDU>
From: The Jester <ygoland@edison.seas.ucla.edu>
Subject: SSN & Gernuglflux!
Date: 24 Dec 92 04:26:13 GMT
Organization: Republicans for Sanity
Before I open my mouth, can someone point me to the SSN faq.
The Jester
[Moderator's Note: I will send it out today, ._dennis ]
--
The Jester
"Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a mind reader!"-Bones
"It what you DON'T know that counts."-Me
"Work Smarter, Not Harder"-Scrouge McDucks' Dad
------------------------------
End of Computer Privacy Digest V1 #119
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