Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 15:31:29 EST
Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler <comp-privacy-request@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator <comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V2#036
Computer Privacy Digest Sat, 24 Apr 93 Volume 2 : Issue: 036
Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears
Re: National ID Card and the end of Privacy
Re: Credit card application
Re: Credit Card Application
SSN on college applications?
WorrUK state health service privacy and ID number
electronic mail privacy
Severe privacy attack?
Getting Clipped
Reprint Roszak: _The Cult of Information_, Y or N?
The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the
effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and
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(Moderated). Submissions should be sent to
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Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil
[129.139.160.133].
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Philip Hurley <p-hurley1@tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: National ID Card and the end of Privacy
In article <comp-privacy2.33.4@pica.army.mil> you write:
>I am curious if anyone has any FACTS regarding the 'national medical
>ID card'. Is the Clinton administration aware of the horendous
>privacy implications this card has? How have they addressed these
>issues? If you thought SSN's were bad, wait till you see what this
>baby will do!
> Please Post All Facts Available,
> The Jester
>--
> The Jester -PGP VER2 Key on Request
>Why all Politicians should be like Ross Perot:
>"Hes too short to be seen, to rich to be bribed, and will quit
>before he does any real damage"-Jay Leno
>
I don't have many facts but I can tell you some bill numbers that may be
related. In the House, HR940, sponsored by Byrne and HR1640 sponsored by
Waxman. In the Senate, S732 and S733 sponsored by Kennedy & Rielgle. These
bills contain requirements for federally mandated vaccination of children,
registration, tracking & surveillance of children from birth, and equate
failure to vaccinate children with child abuse. I cannot validify the
wording of these bills and would welcome any clarification.
Philip Hurley "It is absurd to say that you are
T.A.E.X. especially advancing freedom when you only
Computer Technology use free thought to destroy free will."
(409) 845-9689 -- Chesterton
p-hurley1@tamu.edu I, too, disclaim.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dave Niebuhr, BNL CCD, 516-282-3093" <NIEBUHR@bnlcl6.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Credit card application
In Computer Privacy Digest V2 #034 Matthew B Cravit <cravitma@student.msu.edu>
writes:
>I received a credit card application (some kind of student Visa/Mastercard),
>and in looking at the application, I see that they want to know:
[... various information deleted - dwn ...]
>Should I be wary of providing any of this? Do they have a reasonable right to
>my Mastercard and AmEx account numbers and checking balance?
I'm not sure but you can bet that they will find out your credit status
with them when they do a credit check on you.
I look at it this way, If I'm applying for a credit card I might as well
tell them up front since they will find out anyway.
I'm not sure about the balance but the last application I filled out
just requested the name of the bank and my account number (probably
to see if I'm a congresscritter who can't balance a checkbook).
Dave
Dave Niebuhr Internet: niebuhr@bnl.gov / Bitnet: niebuhr@bnl
Brookhaven National Laboratory Upton, LI, NY 11973 (516)-282-3093
Senior Technical Specialist: Scientific Computer Facility
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 00:57:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Robinson <tdarcos@mcimail.com>
Reply-To: Paul Robinson <tdarcos@mcimail.com>
Subject: Re: Credit Card Application
From: Paul Robinson <tdarcos@mcimail.com>
Organization: Tansin A. Darcos & Company, Silver Spring, MD USA
-----
In Privacy Digest 2-034, Matthew B Cravit <cravitma@student.msu.edu>,
(whose initials are coincidentally MC), writes about credit card
applications:
MC> I received a credit card application (some kind of student
MC> Visa/Mastercard), and in looking at the application, I see
MC> that they want to know:
Very Dangerous. Stay away from this at all costs. Not the bank,
but applying for a debit card at all. I've got plastic. I wanted
to get one for years, and I did. I also have the large bills caused
because all the "pain" of spending real cash vanishes when you use
a credit card.
When I purchased a second computer, I did so by a combination of
new equipment and cannibalizing the disk drive out of my old XT.
And I paid cash for it - $500. (The desk in my room has what was
a programmer's envy ten years ago; two computers.)
This expenditure of real money gave me a few days of sleeping problems,
as buyer's remorse set in. $500 is almost two weeks net pay. Everything
turned out fine, but there is something about cash that makes you respect
it more than the ease of paying in plastic. (I count checks and ATM
cards as cash since you have to have "real" assets to cover them.)
Three years ago I bought that hard disk for $415. On plastic, when I
making 1/2 of what I was making now. Obviously, $415 then is a lot more
money for me in earning power than the $500 was back at Christmas when I
bought my new computer. But the purchase on plastic didn't give me the
kind of fears that having to cough up "real" money did.
I have debit plastic; I regret having it. I recommend avoiding non
secured cards. Unless you have the fortidude to pay off the balance
in full.
Secured cards require you put your own money in a savings account and
they issue you a credit limit up to that amount. Some even pay
interest on the deposit. Since it's your own money, you might not be
tempted to go into expensive debt.
Also, for those that really need a credit card, because of renting cars
or hotel rooms and such, I recommend using instead a T&E card that requires
full payment at the end of the month, such as American Express Green or
Carte Blanche/Diners' Club. These are probably better cards to start
out with since you have to get used to paying them off immediately.
But to go back and answer your *direct* questions:
MC> that they want to know:
MC> My Resident Alien number (I am not a US citizen yet)
They want to identify you specifically so that they can find you
if you don't pay your bills and they have to report you to credit
bureaus or sue you.
MC> All sources of income and how much I make per week from each
This shows them how much debt you can afford to carry.
MC> My checking account NUMBER, bank and BALANCE
MC> The account numbers of any other bank accounts I have and their
MC> balances
This allows them to determine - from your income - what part of what you
make that you save. Checking shows how much you keep to pay bills and
current expenses. Savings shows how much you put aside for the future.
People that spend everything they make and live from paycheck to paycheck
are questionable credit risks. That includes me and probably 3/4 of the
readers of this newsgroup, :) but....
MC> The account numbers of any credit cards I have and my monthly
MC> payments
Again, how much debt are you carrying now. I'm surprised it doesn't
ask where you live (alone, with others, rooming, mortgage, rent) and
how much you spend on rent per month.
MC> Social security number
Same thing, for tracking purposes.
Realize that when you get a credit card from someone, you are allowing
them to give you an "unsecured loan" i.e. a promissory note backed by
nothing but your signature, i.e. your promise to repay them. Thus it
is in their interest to be sure that (1) they do not give you more
debt than you are able to pay off at any time (2) that they make sure
they know exactly who you are so that they have the ability to come
after you if you don't pay up.
In short, these are reasonable considering the risk they have to take
from fraudulent charges and people who don't pay their debt. (Now the
whole issue of excessive debt is another one altogether.)
-----
Paul Robinson -- TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM
------------------------------
From: "Fidler, Justin" <jrf%b31.nihnei.dcrt.nih.gov@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: SSN on college applications?
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 11:29:00 EDT
I'm a junior in high school, and soon I will have to start applying to
colleges. Having taken the SAT before, and on checking the box to allow my
name/scores/etc to be released publically to colleges, I receive at least 5
pieces of mail daily from colleges.
Often what I receive is a simple brochure with a business reply card. On
these reply cards, they often ask for quite a few things, notably SSN. My
question is this: should I include it, and if not, will it lower my chances
with that college? I wonder if a data-entry clerk who receives a card with a
blank area may just toss the card. It is more important to me that I have a
chance getting into a college than if my SSN is released.
It should be noted that SATs are tracked by numerous keywords, the most
common being SSN.
Thanks for any help,
Justin Fidler
jrf@b31.nei.nih.gov
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 10:53:24
From: James Faircliffe <I_USERID_4@prime1.central-lancashire.ac.uk>
Subject: WorrUK state health service privacy and ID number
The NHS is the British National Health Service which (very roughly) gives
everyone free health treatment, for all reasonable medical needs, without
asking any questions about their income. Practically everyone in Britain
has used it and most people use it as virtually their only source of medical
treatment.
A major reorganisation in this nationalised service is leading to the
creation of an 'internal market', whereby the patient's doctor 'buys' hospital
treatment from (often) the cheapest hospital (which may be in another health
district) rather than from the local hospital. One obvious way of easing the
administrative problems of this is to use an efficient computer system. At
present, patient records are mostly on paper. Any summary data which is
held on computer tends to have a highly restricted circulation.
The English 'Cambridge Evening News', on Friday April 16th, had a lead story
by Fulton Gillespie about a new computer system for the Cambridge Health
District. It said that the system allowed confidential patient information
to be passed between health authorities and hospitals. The national Data
Protection Registrar, Eric Howe, believes that the system may breach the
1984 Data Protection Act and objects because:
1) A lot of the information held is excessive,
2) A lot of the information was collected unfairly,
3) A lot of the information is stored for longer than was needed,
4) A lot of the information can be used by unauthorised persons.
He especially objected because he believed that the system is wrong to store
marital status and ethnic origin. He is afraid that the new NHS number to
be given to all patients might eventually become a national ID number which
would be available to all government departments. We already have an NHS
number but it isn't used much. Our National Insurance number is the
equivalent of your SSN but is not abused to anything like the same extent.
The Cambridge scheme was an offical national government pilot scheme, so the
Department of Health was directly involved. The Department heads are studying
the report. The British government has, for a Western democracy, a distinctly
poor record in respecting individuals' privacy and maintaining open government.
The 1984 Data Protection Act, like the your federal Privacy Act 1974, has some
uses but is generally ineffective. The Registrar, Eric Howe, does his best
to enforce it but has a small staff and budget.
.
i_userid_4@p1.uclan.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Erini Doss <erini@enterprise.ifp.uiuc.edu>
Subject: electronic mail privacy
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 05:48:31 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
I need to find out any information possible about
electronic mail at the workplace. For example, when
a person writes for social reasons, does his manager
have the right to read it anytime? Is the employees'
e-mail considered company property or is it cosidered
the employees? Is there anything that the company
considers not theirs or is it considered theirs as
long as the person is doing it during work hours?
What about during lunch breaks? What about super-
users? When do companies feel that they have the
right to read anyone's mail and who can do it?
Please help, if you have any knowledge of cases at
compannies or can recommend any info... I'm in
a bind research poaper is due in less thatn a
week!! But, jplease don't send over any irrelevant
material!!
e-mail adress is erini@enterprise.ifp.uiuc.edu
------------------------------
From: u92_dwebb@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
Subject: Severe privacy attack?
Organization: Stevens Institute Of Technology
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 08:27:37 GMT
I'll be graduating in about a month, and my school has "asked" me to
fill out some paperwork before I leave. One of the items I'm expected to fill
out is a Loan Interview form. Although all my loans were government
subsidized, this form does not appear to be federal. It also doesn't appear to
be from the school, since the school's name isn't on it, and a number of other
features make it look fairly generic. I'm concerned about a number of items on
it, and I'd like your advice...
Along with the standard name, address, and phone number, they want the
following information:
- Major
- Student ID #
- SS# (same as student id, unfortunately)
- Drivers License #, state
- Date of birth
- Employer info
- Loan amounts and types
- Fraternity affiliations
- Credit card companies and numbers !!!
- Bank names, account types, and account numbers !!!
- Father/mother name/address/phone #/employer
- "Two references from home locality other than relatives or students"
- "One relative other than parents who will always know your address"
Does this sound like a legitimate request for information, or do I have a
strong case to refuse filling out this form? (I'll certainly be leaving lots
of it incomplete, in any case.)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Douglas Webb | Yeah, like anyone else could come up |
| U92_DWEBB@VAXA.STEVENS-TECH.EDU | with these opinions. |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 03:41:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Robinson <tdarcos@mcimail.com>
Reply-To: Paul Robinson <tdarcos@mcimail.com>
Subject: Getting Clipped
The Washington Times reported Thursday that the U.S. Government, in
"gassing" the Branch Davidian compound at Waco, Texas, used a nerve
agent (CS "Tear Gas") on children that is banned by international
law for use in warfare.
The CS tear agent, or O-chlorobenzalmalononitrite, is a white crystaline
powder that causes involuntary closure of eyes, burning of the skin,
respiratory problems and vomiting, which anyone who knows how this
chemical works would be aware that use in an enclosed area would make
leaving the area difficult due to the trauma it would cause.
It would have been illegal for the U.S. Government to use this
product on Iraqui troops, but apparently it's okay to spray it on
6-year-old children of this country who could not even have gas
masks because they are not made in the sizes that fit children, and
because this type of tear gas is normally used for crowd control and is
designed to be hard to resist with a gas mask.
This is the same government that expects us to trust it with the base
systems and equipment used to create the cryptographic encryption
systems to be used by the public in telephone calls, data transmissions,
and people's most sensitive information. This sort of callous
treatment of their country's own people (specifically innocent children)
shows that no government agency could be trusted with anything of this
seriousness.
As far as I'm concerned, they can take the Clipper Chip and
shove it. A government that would use militarily banned
ordnance on it's own citizens in general, and on children in
particular, is morally bankrupt and cannot be trusted for anything.
-----
Paul Robinson -- TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM
[Moderator's Note: No comments about the Waco situation. It doesn't
belong here. ._dennis ]
------------------------------
From: William Edward <woody@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Reprint Roszak: _The Cult of Information_, Y or N?
Date: 23 Apr 1993 23:57:02 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Friday, April 23, 1993
The University of California Press is considering re-releasing a book
on computers, people, and information, which has gone out of print.
The book is called _The Cult of Information_; its author is Theodore
Roszak. It was originally published in 1986 by Pantheon Press.
UC Press doesn't have Internet access, so I've been asked to gather
opinion from people on Usenet... Pro or con... Should the book be
re-released? The new edition would be in paperback form, and priced
in the $10-$12 range. It would contain a new author's preface,
addressing issues of the past seven years.
U.C. Press is interested in any comments folks may have, and
specifically ones on the following issues:
What is the potential market? Would the book be appropriate for
classroom use in any kinds of college courses?
General impressions of the quality, accuracy, and insightfulness, or
lack of those characteristics, present in the book.
How could the book be publicized so as to best reach those who would
be interested in having a copy?
Obviously, these questions are more easily answered if you've read or
know of the book. I've included the table of contents and some of the
back and front matter, to appease everyone else's curiousity.
Please respond by mail to woody@zocalo.com, rather than by follow-up
here. Thank you.
-Bill Woodcock
________________________________________________________________________________
bill woodcock woody@zocalo.com woody@applelink.apple.com woody@ucscb.ucsc.edu
Other books by Theodore Roszak:
_Person/Planet_
_Unfinished Animal_
_Where the Wasteland Ends_
_The Making of a Counter Culture_
_The Dissenting Academy_
_Masculine/Feminine_
_Sources_
_Dreamwatcher_
_Bugs_
_Pontifex_
About the Author:
Theodore Roszak, acclaimed author of _The Making of a
Counter Culture_, has twice been nominated for a National
Book Award. He is professor of history and chairman of
general studies at California State University, Hayward.
Table of Contents:
Introduction
"Information Please"
Information old-style
Enter UNIVAC
Cybernetics and the secret of life
The biocomputer
The Data Merchants
High tech and the conservative opportunists
Sunbelt politics and the warfare state
Megahype
Hackers and hucksters
Silicon and natural selection
Technophilia
The Hidden Curriculum
The chimera of computer literacy
A solution in search of problems
The computerized campus
Power and dependency
A private universe
The Program Within the Program
The case of Logo
Of Ideas and Data
Ideas come first
The master ideas
Experience, memory, insight
The empiricist gambit
No ideas, no information
Computers and Pure Reason
The light in Plato's cave
The old mathematical magic
The seductions of software
An alien intelligence
The flight from reality
The fifth generation... and beyond
The Computer and the Counterculture
Big Blue and the guerrilla hackers
An electronic populism
The heroic age of the microcomputer
Reversionaries and technophiles
Domes, data, and dope
Decline and fall
The Politics of Information
Nothing but the facts
Data glut
Issues before information
Online communities: the promise of networking
The public library: the missing link of the information age
In The Wrong Hands
The foundations of information technology
The surveillance machine
The polling machine
The war machine
_Machine `a gouverner_
At the limits of sanity: the psychotic machine
Descartes's Angel
Reflections on the true art of thinking
Notes
Index
<end attachments>
------------------------------
End of Computer Privacy Digest V2 #036
******************************