F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.40 (03-Oct-1993) +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | A newsletter of the | | | FidoNet BBS community | Published by: | | _ | | | / \ | "FidoNews" BBS | | /|oo \ | +1-519-570-4176 1:1/23 | | (_| /_) | | | _`@/_ \ _ | Editors: | | | | \ \\ | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 | | | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 | | |__U__| / \// | Tim Pozar 1:125/555 | | _//|| _\ / | | | (_/(_|(____/ | | | (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. | | | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Submission address: editors 1:1/23 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Internet addresses: | | | | Sylvia -- max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Donald -- donald@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Tim -- pozar@kumr.lns.com | | Both Don & Sylvia (submission address) | | editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | For information, copyrights, article submissions, | | obtaining copies and other boring but important details, | | please refer to the end of this file. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ======================================================================== Table of Contents ======================================================================== 1. Editorial..................................................... 2 2. Articles...................................................... 2 IT'S A FUNNY OLD WORLD...................................... 2 The issue of Privacy, thoughts of a US Citizen.............. 3 OUR HUMBLE ROOTS............................................ 5 Rebuttal to "Content Cops" in FNEWS 39...................... 6 A Reply to "Content Cops: Opening the door to censorship"... 10 Windows (and DV) background tossing......................... 11 FIDOnet encryption (or lack thereof)........................ 13 3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 16 FidoNews 10-40 Page: 2 03 Oct 1993 ======================================================================== Editorial ======================================================================== A short message came in from England yesterday: Mini Mansell, at 2:258/36 is a juggler, and would like to know if there is a circus arts echo of any kind in Zone one. If so, then Mini would like to import it to the UK. While that goes the rounds, we are also still looking for fine arts echos. The censorship issue has been wrung out but is still all wet. There appears to be a great deal of missinformation about the entire thing ... the last article in this issue makes some very interesting points regarding legality. There are also several statements that are rather jarring to my ear. For example, one writer solemnly assumes that anyone against censorship cannot be raising children. Well, I have raised two children, currently ages 16 and 22. I have always found that kids too young to read something are too young to read it; they are not interested. Once they are, it astounds me that someone can think they will develope a balanced, informed opinion by having their reading material censored by anyone other than themselves. But then, if I do not want something on my board, I simply do not carry it. I cut more echos because they are boring than for any other reason. One that got me annoyed might be worth carrying... ======================================================================== Articles ======================================================================== IT'S A FUNNY OLD WORLD By: Denise Altoff 3:670/213.1 In the past few weeks I have read the Snooze with much interest, for the most part its been your usual normal fido-orientated stuff, which though might be interesting is not the sort of thing that produces massive belly laughs, however the last 3 Issues have been chocka full of not only stuff guaranteed to produce a mild giggle but your full ROFLASTC stuff. I refer to firstly, the Church of Elvis, the whole concept boggles the mind, and I must admit I was tempted to send my $5 and pick a title, I was going to be a Mother Superior, which would have fitted in nicely with my own cult, "The SisterHood Of The Suspect Denise" of which I am the leading light and Mother Superior, this in turn would have connected quite nicely up with "The Church Of The Almighty Aardvaark" of which "The SisterHood" shares fund raising ideas and military arms. However saner heads prevailed and I was talked out of buying a title (mores the pity), people feeling that too much POWER would have gone to my head and I would have been marrying and ordaining people, left, right and centre. Me, Power MAD, never... FidoNews 10-40 Page: 3 03 Oct 1993 I'm the sanest person I know. The second thing that caused much giggling and ROFLing in my humble abode was the war of words bewteen the two learned gentlemen over the origins and content of the Bible echos... Dear oh dear, not much christian charity being shown there at all. I bet old beezlebub was having a great old cackle as he warmed his hands in front of the fire 8-). Thirdly, and the thing that really prompted me to write this article in the first place, was the little effort by our friend from Germany, on his hypothetical ZC, which in his feeble attempts to make more ~Politically Correct~ he made a woman, very smart move, as we all know, no MAN would ever behave like he describes this female ZC as behaving. Then he throws in his hoary old chestnut about "all women being bossy" one can only wonder at what his dear old mum would think about this. I am far from being bossy, I moderate 2 echos in Fido, and the users of my echos, who are on the whole, a great bunch, and mainly MALE, would say that most times I am too lenient. But enough about that, or else I will start in on about the latent sexism present in the whole Fido structure. I look forward to the next edition of the Snooze with bated breath, what will it be next time, another breathless dissertation about the merits of what archiver to use?? (we use LHA for the nodelist in Oz, and we managed to do this via a VOTE), another salvo in the long running saga about the Holey Bible (intentional mistake) echo, or perhaps we will see another "hypothetical", or maybe the Church of Elvis will annouce the second coming of the MAN himself, keep 'em coming guys, I need something to laugh at. Denise Altoff (aka Teddy) P.S anyone who wishes to join the Sisterhood, just send me a netmail, I'm multi denominational and quite irreligious. 8-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The issue of Privacy, thoughts of a US Citizen. By GK Pace @ 1:374/26 Technology is advancing at a mind boggling rate, expanding in all directions. The advancements promise wonderous benefits, services, and tools to mankind, for which we wait in anticipatory delight. Just as all new technology has potential for benefit, the potential for harm, or abuse of the technology to produce harmful results exists. The most serious potential threats are those which threaten privacy. Today the threats to this fundamental human right are far greater than at any time in the history of mankind. The revolutions of time past which fought to define the rights of privacy, as well as those societies founded upon such rights are today threatened by an arsenal most mankind cannot even concieve of much less fight against. Unfortunately much of the population living in such societies cannot even concieve of the threats to this basic right, and live in complacent ignorance of the battles which have already begun. FidoNews 10-40 Page: 4 03 Oct 1993 One would hope that the Governments of such societies would be the leaders in defending the rights to privacy, but such is not the case, the Governments are in fact often the chief advisary. It should be understood that more often than not, the attacks upon privacy are done not with the intent of interfering with this right, but for other noble reasons such as the war against crime. The intent is not the significant issue, the result is. Is winning the war against crime by destroying basic human rights to personal privacy and other freedoms, winning? Is winning a war by destroying the world, winning? The United States Government, for noble reasons is concerned with National Security. This concern has resulted in the Government being active in observing the activities of citizens of other countries for potential threats to the United States. No US citizen would argue against this practice in principal. However, more recently, such activities have been directed more and more towards US citizens, as the Government wages the war against crime. As technology produces more sophisticated tools for monitoring communications, and the activities of people, the ability to do so, as well as the amount of information one can obtain when doing so becomes greater. The current level of technology does not leave much of a persons ability live or conduct daily activities in private intact, and those areas of privacy remaining are under active attack from both the advances of technology, and the Governments emplementation of it. Most people simply do not believe that the Government can (and does) monitor communications, has the ability to monitor and store the information displayed on a video terminal from a distance without any direct connection to it, or that they consider the use of encryption technology not issued and controlled by the Government to be a criminal activity. An unfortunate state of affairs, since all of this is true today, and has been for quite some time. The actual extent of the Governments ability to monitor the activites of a private citizen are of course a carefully guarded secret, but even the obvious and known is beyond the belief of the average US citizen. The Government is made up of individuals. Where individuals have the power to invade privacy, the potential for it happening is great. The greater the potential and ability, the incidence of abuse, as well as the severity of such abuse, increase. The past few years, Government agencies have been actively expanding their abilities to monitor, collect, and process information on an individual. The best resources are put to this use, and the abilities have indeed expanded greatly. This is not all, they have been actively ingaged in changing laws and regulations to inhance their legal right to employ such abilities on private citizens. The best most powerful (and expensive) computers in the world are employed by the Government for the purposes of monitoring communications (voice, data, FAX, radio, satellite, money transactions, etc.) of citizens, organizations, and companies. The amount of information gathered and processed for use is astronomical, and exceeds that employed or FidoNews 10-40 Page: 5 03 Oct 1993 processed by NASA for its astronomical operations. The Government has attempted on several occasions to pass laws which would legitimize wiretapping. Currently, federal agencies conduct wiretapping and related monitoring activities to gather evidence, most of which cannot be introduced in a court of law. The changes they seek in our laws would allow them to introduce such evidence in a court of law. The Government has also attempted to place the Justice Department in control of the communications industry, with the specific ability to control the specification of all such devices (telephones, televisions, radios, etc.) equipment, and networks involved with it, such that they enhance the Governments ability to monitor communications in an undetected fashion. This is no joke, and the intent was clearly spelled out as such in several proposed bills for Congress to act upon. The thought that the telephones, radios, televisions, and such devices in your home might be broadcasting information (even when not in use) to a Government employee, recorder, or computer about what you are doing, who you talk to, and even what you do in your bedroom, sounds far fetched... but the technology exists today, and the Government has been active in trying to put it to use in every house, business, and organization in the United States. In summary, your rights to privacy have seriously eroded, and are as we speak being reduced even further. This may seem like an alarmist view but it is infact a very brief, honest appraisal of the situation. Nothing less than a widespread awakening of the Public to the situation, and appropiate responses to such attempts, can hope to maintain this basic freedom for ourselves, and our children. Think about it, and let your opinions be known to your various representatives. Complacency on this matter will most assuredly lose this freedom for us all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OUR HUMBLE ROOTS OR WHERE DID WE COME FROM? by Marge Robbins 1:283/120 Time out! Time out! Would everyone please put down your cannons for a few seconds and let me ask you a couple of questions? How many of you had node numbers 1 year ago? 5 years ago? 9 years ago? How many of you know who is the Father of FidoNet? Ok, Ok, that's an easy one. Everyone knows that Tom Jennings is responsible for this mess. How about this? WHY did Mr. Jennings do what he did? .... Give up? Because he wanted to see if he could get two Fidos to talk to each other. Now, who knows what a Fido is? I didn't until I had been in the net for several years. Ask your NC. Lets see how good HIS memory is. One final question, when did Fido 1 talk to Fido 2 for the first time? Spring 1984, late May or early June. That means, fellow SysOps, that in June 1994 FidoNet will be ten years old. FidoNews 10-40 Page: 6 03 Oct 1993 So why am I rambling about some unimportant events that happened long ago, and have no relivance to anything occuring today? To make a long story short, I have undertaken to compile a history of Fidonet. With the Net's 10th anniversery coming up, I think this is an ideal time to take a look back at where we have been, and a good look at where we are going. So folks, I am going to need some help. Reading the back issues of Fidonet and talking to a few folks has given me the skeleton of a timeline, but it has many black holes in it. Please assist me in filling them in. If you have any historical documents that you are willing to share, or would be interested in sharing with me what you know about the history of your Net, Region, or Zone please contact me at 283/120 or if you are HIST only route to John Johnson at 283/657 and he will see that I get your submissions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rebuttal to "Content Cops" in FNEWS 39 Rob Butler 1:124/3000, 3109, 3110 Quick note : I wish to state up front, that I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Dampier, and that any and all suggestions of character within are purely my own speculation from his writings. In the article "Content Cops: Opening the Door to Censorship" by Phillip M. Dampier in FNEWS 39, he made a few rather outlandish suggestions about personal expression and censorship. I wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. Dampier, and from reading the annoucement by Dan Buda that Mr. Dampier posted, I find no reason to dispute it. I believe the gist of Mr. Dampier's article was that each and every person has the right of individual expression, and opinion. While I agree with this, I also believe that Mr. Dampier has missed the point of Mr. Buda's annoucement; that expression is allowed, but that there are more proper forums in which to do so. To quote from Mr. Buda's announcement : "A word about dropping echos. There are several echos which are candidates for being dropped due to the content of the echo. This is not an easy decision, and not one which the ZEC enters into lightly. It is not our desire nor will it ever be our practice to censor the contents of an echo. But when the contents of an echo are of such a character that they are more suitable for distribution on a network that is "adult" (if you know what I mean!) in nature it may be that we take a second look at the echo. Being that FidoNet typically exercises no control over whom may obtain an echo, whether they be 10 years old or 21 years old, many feel it is not in our best interest to be carriers of material which could be source of embarassment should a minor be found to be carrying such an echo. Where a moderator is actively" FidoNews 10-40 Page: 7 03 Oct 1993 [...] I can only guess at Mr. Dampier's background; I have no knowledge of him personally, but I would expect that he does not have any children and is not trying to raise any children in a proper nuturing environ- ment. One of the responsibilities of a parent is to attempt to shield their children from the more harmful sides of humanity until they are mature enough to deal with them. By disputing Mr. Buda's statement about preventing access to adult material to minors, Mr. Dampier is effectively declaring that a minor should be allowed access to any form of adult material. Would *you* allow your children to view pornography? An ever increasing number of BBS's carry adult material online. The majority of these systems properly require proof of age and identification before allowing access to the adult material they have available. Why do they do this? In every city, state and county that I am aware of, there are a list of local laws that govern which material is considered to be of an adult nature. These laws almost always state that an individual must be of at least 18 years of age in order for the viewing or possesion of said material to not be considered being done by a minor. These BBS systems are attempting to cover themselves from any possible legal action against them, by allowing only persons considered legal adults access. Take a look at the opposite corner; a theoretical system carries no adult files, and does not profess to have "adult" material of any kind online. However, this system *does* carry certain freely-available Fidonet areas, among them being possibly the BITCH echo that Mr. Dampier is fond of, and a few other choice ones. If a minor gains access to these areas, several things could possibly happen : legal action against the offending system for allowing "adult" material to be viewed by a minor, and a large amount of negative press (yet again) about the horrible secret-underground of computer bulletin board systems that contain everything from nuclear bomb building instructions to pornography. I'm sure many overly concerned parents would ask "but how did my child find out about xxxxxxxx?", leading to the inevitable reply from authorities about the freely-available conferences full of adult material that are distributed by a adult-oriented network of thousands of computer systems called Fidonet; more bad press. To quote from Mr. Dampiers article : >I am completely opposed to an arbitrary content enforcement policy >for backboned Fidonet conferences. It opens the door to an unelected >handful of individuals being able to pressure the Zone Echomail >Coordinator into forcing their personal moral values on us or force >the ZEC to remove a conference for its content, and sexual issues are >obviously not the only criteria at work here. Please read that last sentence very closely, and then re-read the quoted portion of Mr. Budas announcement. I find no evidence anywhere in Mr. Buda's announcement for any form of "censorship" other than the FidoNews 10-40 Page: 8 03 Oct 1993 removal of adult material from vulnerable systems. Mr. Dampier is more than willing to enlighten us on his own adgenda futher in his article however. >While Mr. Buda may be benevolent, there are absolutely no assurances >that the precedent that is about to be set will not be used by a >future ZEC from cracking down based on his own personal religious or >moral beliefs. I saw no mention of religion, either the preference of one or the disparagement of another in Mr. Buda's announcement. A precedent would only be set on the distribution of adult-oriented material, NOT for any other type of material. >The ZEC then receives a handful of selected messages, generally >without any backround of the conference and its audience, and then >decides to state that either the moderator steps in and stops the >icky four letter words and sexual insults or else he will remove >it from the backbone. This is entirely possible; however, I think Mr. Dampier does not give proper credit to either the coordinators, or the moderator of the conference in question. Arbitrary decisions of the magnitude of removing an entire conference from the backbone are not done without proper consent and consideration from the involved systems. >No matter that 50-100 nodes or more pick and up and carry the >conference without complaint. A small handful are appalled and >simply won't turn off what offends them. In such a situation, the conference in question would not be a part of Fidonet, and would be better off being carried by another network so that the costs of distribution are lessened. Exactly what Mr. Buda is suggesting be done in his announcement. >We should be using the same approach we use with offensive TV >programs: if you don't like what you see, turn the channel. And if your TeleVision receives nothing but smut and violence, do you sell your T.V., or do you send a complaint to the offending stations asking them to shape up? Please, Mr. Dampier, explain why cable TeleVision has such a large following. It is an alternate "network" that carries a different selection of programs that are not related to broadcast TeleVision in the slightest. Channels such as Discovery, The Learning Channel, NASA, Nickelodion, TBS, and many others refuse to assume their audience is mindless and dumb. >Another possibility: The current or future ZEC has religious or >personal problems with the carriage of echos that pertain to gay >and lesbian issues. Again, I fail to see how Mr. Dampier can bring this up, as no mention of such topics are made (or implyed) by Mr. Buda. FidoNews 10-40 Page: 9 03 Oct 1993 >Despite the fact the conferences are focused on political efforts >and general socializing, a handful of religious zealots or others >make the determination in their own mind that these conferences >are "adult" in nature and that echos like GAYTEEN are an >abomination. Again, Mr. Dampier is twisting words around trying to make them fit his argument. I fail to see how he can claim that "political efforts" are maintained in such environments as the BITCH and other related echos provide. And yet again, Mr. Dampier brings up religion, even though no mention of it was given by Mr. Buda. I saw no mention of the GAYTEEN echo in Mr. Buda's announcement. >They move for these echos to be removed, despite the fact they are >not packed with sex stories, because anything that talks about >"gay or lesbian" is automatically adult in nature. To a mature individual, conversations about or between gay or lesbian persons do not need to be focused strictly on sexual interaction. Does Tom Jennings, the originator of Fidonet, speak only of sex, or does he have other interests? >The same could happen to any echo dealing with a minority group, >even to religious minorities. Whatever a small group of people >is offended by is at risk. Mr. Dampier this time brings in an arguement about segregation, which was never mentioned in Mr. Buda's article. And it apparently was too difficult for him to leave out that last plug about religion, which again was never mentioned by Mr. Buda. >Until individual nodes have the right to directly elect those >people who want to play content cop with our echomail, these >appointed people should not be given the right to slash echos >that they or a few others can't seem to deal with. Since there are so "few" other people in the world with a conscience that are trying to raise their children in a supporting environment, I thought I would bring up a couple of ideas for Mr. Dampier. Democratic election is not a reality for all areas in the "real" world. In many places, it is literally impossible to hold an actual election because of the infighting and turmoil as one faction attacks against another. Until such time as there is the luxury for everyone in the world to sit back and wait for an election to be held, there must be individuals who are willing to step forward and sacrifice their personal time and freedoms so that the greater good can profit. Since Mr. Dampier seems so fond of religion, and since this article is supposed to be about the protection of minors from adult material, how does he feel about the large number of priests that have been/and will be accused of sexual molestation? From his additude of "if you don't like it, change the channel", one gets the idea that he doesn't see a problem with it. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. FidoNews 10-40 Page: 10 03 Oct 1993 Rob Butler Fido 1:124/3000, 3109, 3110 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A Reply to "Content Cops: Opening the door to censorship" By: Justin Shirk Fido 1:270/425 First, let's see what Mr. Dampier said: >Once again, coordinators in Fidonet are overstepping appropriate >boundaries in determining what is and is not appropriate. Last time, >it was the Registration Police and now we're going to have a >Conference Morals Police in order to "protect us." >I am completely opposed to an arbitrary content enforcement policy >for backboned Fidonet conferences. It opens the door to an unelected >handful of individuals being able to pressure the Zone Echomail >Coordinator into forcing their personal moral values on us or force >the ZEC to remove a conference for its content, and sexual issues are >obviously not the only criteria at work here. Obviously Mr. Dampier has no concept of the recent raids and such conducted against people who run very reputable adult systems. You see, even if the kid lied, you can STILL get busted. It is unfortunate that the government now feels the need to regulate every facit of our private lives. Granted, I am opposed to adult meterial persay, but its distribution is legal among consenting adults . Therefor, because of the recent twists in the law, I think the ZEC was right to discontinue the distribution of those echos. I don't think it was morally motivated at all, really. More like covering your self from legal problems later on when some 15 year old sysop might get ahold of an echo. >I can understand the concerns that people have about access to adult >information by minors, but this should be policed by individual >SysOps/nodes and conference moderators, not by a small handful of >content cops. I also agree with you here. It should be policed by the SysOps AS WELL. But say one smart little sysop just felt like carrying all the echos and pleaded "no knowledge of said language on said conferences." Then the echo coord and all others involved in the distribution of such meterial could be held accountable. It raises alot of legal problems. >Despite the fact the conferences are focused on political efforts >and general socializing, a handful of religious zealots or others >make the determination in their own mind that these conferences >are "adult" in nature and that echos like GAYTEEN are an >abomination. >They move for these echos to be removed, despite the fact they are >not packed with sex stories, because anything that talks about FidoNews 10-40 Page: 11 03 Oct 1993 >"gay or lesbian" is automatically adult in nature. I'm not so sure that kind of meterial is suitable for the public in any case. And that could raise alot of problems with parents saying "oh my kid _LEARNED_ how to be gay by listening to that GAYTEEN conf on Fidonet." And yes, gay or lesbian talk is AUTOMATICALLY adult in nature. Why? Because, IMHO, teens shouldn't be practicing homosexuality! What kind of precedent does that set for our youth? That it's alright to CHOOSE your sexual nature? >The same could happen to any echo dealing with a minority group, >even to religious minorities. Whatever a small group of people >is offended by is at risk. Yes this is also true. Why? Because of our lobby system in this country. Every little group has their own little lobby, for various purposes. Nothing really gets done in Washington anymore because of it. Including the gay rights movement. We could have focused our attention on the real problems in this country instead of wasting our time on gay rights those first few months. I know I touched alot of subjects in this article. Sorry it was semi- long. |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | Justin Shirk - SysOp, Cybernetics BBS * Fido 1:270/425 | | (717)738-1976 Supra 14.4k v.42bis * ITC 85:863/207 | | InterNET e-mail/UseNET newsgroups * InterNET rhutch!cyberb.uucp | | 680+ megs online * 6400+ files * 140+ newsgroups | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Windows (and DV) background tossing By Arthur Ward 1:106/321 In FidoNews 10-39, an article from Dave Hunter on using DVCRON for tossing mail in background turned on a light for me. First, before I blatantly advertise my own Windows program, I'll put in a few cents for alternative methods for DesqView that Dave didn't cover: Two fine products I've found for the DV deparment are Spawn and Sleep. 1. Spawn will start another task running whatever you tell it; you could use this and reload FrontDoor 2.20 (FD 2.02ers like me have no choice but to reload). I would personally recommend this if you can't create a flagfile without exiting your mailer. 2. Sleep will do a variety of "sleeping" activities including watching the clock and FILES. It also has built in time releases FidoNews 10-40 Page: 12 03 Oct 1993 for DV, so a looping batch file using Sleep will do the job nicely. :top sleep +TOSS.NOW ...toss mail... goto top 3. For those who don't want to take up so much memory all the time, combine the two. :top sleep +TOSS.NOW spawn toss.dvp goto top Advanced note: Using a little creativity, you can get a second flagfile in there also that will do a clean shutdown of the tossing task. Cool, huh? Windows 3.1 solutions: 1. To date, I have not found any way to spawn another task from a DOS window. :-( 2. Use Sleep in a looping batch file (like I referred to for DV) Finally, I've written a little dojigger called Dameon Central. Basically, it's a Windows program that does the combined task of Sleep & Spawn, and takes almost no speed penalty on the processor. Features: - Somewhat informative status box when opened up [flagfile set, tossing/idle/Windows error] - When minimized, icon shows state of tossing program - Configurable flag checking speed (look for flag once every XXX milliseconds) - Configurable flags, program to run, etc. - FREEWARE! - Small; uses very little memory (less than 30k) I intend to do a total rewrite of DC sometime in the next few months to allow much more flexibility. For a look, file request the magic name DCENTRAL from me (1:106/321) at 2400bps. The archive is under 30k! (it won't hurt that much! :-) I'm looking forward to (hopefully!) seeing some comments on it trickle back my way. Have fun! Dameon Central - by yours truly Sleep - by John Souvesture (sp?) - I have v4.0 Spawn - I don't remember or have it anymore FidoNews 10-40 Page: 13 03 Oct 1993 - Arthur ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FIDOnet encryption (or lack thereof) Mike Godwin Does routine FIDOnet email INVASION by operators VIOLATE the U.S. Electronic Communications Privacy Act? EFF's lawyer M. Godwin speaks with FIDOnet operator Al Billings on the cypherpunks mailing list. Resident list crank Perry Metzger offers his own whitehot flame. this forward brought to you by cypherpunks Cyberspatial Reality Advancement Movement (CRAM) Information Liberation Front (ILF) Blacknet Al Billings writes: >On Thu, 30 Sep 1993, Mike Godwin wrote: >> >> My question is this: how does he know that the mail is encrypted if he's >> not examining the mail that passes through his system? If he *is* >> examining the mail that passes through his system, it seems likely that he >> is violating the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. > > Only if he has stated that he allows private mail. Most sysops have >specifically worded policy statements for their systems that say that the >sysop can read any and all messages on the system and may do so at any >time. That's all very nice, but it doesn't enable a FIDO sysop to intercept messages from people who are not users of his or her particular system. Those people did not waive their rights to privacy under the ECPA. > Bulletin boards do not normally offer truely private mail because of > some of the legal implications. This is a common myth. First of all, there are many BBSs that do offer truly private mail, or whose sysops, as a matter of policy, do not read others' private mail. Secondly, there's no legal liability associated with allowing e-mail privacy. Third, federal law (the ECPA) bars sysops from examining mail except under some very precisely defined circumstances. I suggest that you inform sysops who tell you otherwise that they can contact me at the Legal Services Department of EFF. You've got my e-mail address already--my phone number is 202-347-5400. From: Mike Godwin Subject: Re: FIDOnet encrypted mail issues FidoNews 10-40 Page: 14 03 Oct 1993 Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 17:16:48 -0400 (EDT) To: cypherpunks@toad.com anonymous@extropia.wimsey.com writes: > Now, the point most internet people forget is that FIDOnet hosts are > hobbyists with 100% privately-owned machines and generally pay for the > entire participation of their userbase out of their own pockets, > excepting a few who get some dollars here and there from their generous > callers. I have never forgotten this. But their commitment and efforts do not amount to an amendment to federal law. > As a completely justified consequence, they can decide if they > allow encrypted traffic _on their individual BBSs_. Under what legal theory do they get an ECPA exemption as a "completely justified consequence"? > In that there is > considerable fear of the consequences of illegal activity being > conducted on their BBSs via encrypted mail, many sysops (such as the one > you mention, leaving aside, for now, that he apparently confused a PGP > key with an encrypted message) do not wish to take the risk and forbid > encrypted traffic. What they don't realize is that, rather than reducing the risk of legal liability, they are increasing it. > They also monitor e-mail, if only incidentally > during the course of routine system maintenance, and notices to this > effect are generally contained in log-on screens and new-user info > files. Any monitoring that results *directly* as a function of system maintenance is okay--it's sanctioned by ECPA. > In that these sysops are extremely, _personally_ vulnerable, they are > generally more cautious than those internet folks who can hide behind > institutions and businesses. If they were really cautious, they'd talk to a lawyer before setting policy based on some guess as to what their legal liabilities may be. -Mike To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: PGP in FIDO Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1993 16:11:04 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" anonymous@extropia.wimsey.com says: > Anyway, the ECPA is basically irrelevant in the BBS world, as 1] almost > every BBS states at log-on that there is no such thing as truly > "private" e-mail on the system as the sysop can, will and does see FidoNews 10-40 Page: 15 03 Oct 1993 > messages in all areas, and 2] he is personally _liable_ for any illegal > activity on his BBS, so he can reasonably be expected to keep an eye on > e-mail for anything that will put his ass in a sling. You haven't been listening at all to Mr. Godwin, have you? 1) The ECPA *DOES* apply to the BBSes whether they want it to or not. All the hoping in the world doesn't make a statute go away. Merely declaring that the ECPA doesn't apply to you doesn't work -- try declaring the tax laws don't apply to you some time and see if that works. 2) The BBS operators are NOT liable UNLESS they censor the mail. If they censor the mail, they are liable for anything they fail to censor. If they do not censor, they are common carriers, and have no liability. In other words, jackasses pretending they understand the law have both broken the law and made themselves more, not less, liable for anthing left on their machines. > There has been a very heated war in FIDOland over PGP and other > encryption. Considering the risk that sysops take on by permitting > secure (?) communication on their BBSs, They take NO risk. They are common carriers if they stop censoring their mail. People don't seem to understand that the law on this is very clear. By the idiotic logic the FIDO operators are using, the phone company could be siezed if two people have a conversation about a crime over the phone. The notion is, of course, absurd, and so is the stupid half-assed amateur lawyering the people who wrote the FIDO policies used. > Personally, _I_ would never stick my neck out like that, though I > convinced many FIDOnet BBSs to do so for my own political and purely > selfish reasons. Actually, as I've just noted, you have not protected yourself. You have opened yourself up for massive legal liability where you had none before. The depths of human folly never cease to amaze me. This case is as if a group of bankers, deciding that they were scared that they might be held liable if one of their clients were a drug dealer (which they aren't) decides to embezzle all the client accounts instead to "keep themselves safe". Perry To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. FidoNews 10-40 Page: 16 03 Oct 1993 ======================================================================== Fidonews Information ======================================================================== ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ---------------- Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Tim Pozar Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello, Tom Jennings IMPORTANT NOTE: The FidoNet address of the FidoNews BBS has been changed!!! Please make a note of this. "FidoNews" BBS FidoNet 1:1/23 BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS) Internet addresses: Don & Sylvia (submission address) editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Sylvia -- max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Donald -- donald@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Tim -- pozar@kumr.lns.com (Postal Service mailing address) (have extreme patience) FidoNews 172 Duke St. E. Kitchener, Ontario Canada N2H 1A7 Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews. Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is copyright 1993 Sylvia Maxwell. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews (we're easy). OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet. PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere, mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.) INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.fidonet.org, in directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding FidoNews 10-40 Page: 17 03 Oct 1993 FidoNet, please direct them to deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org, not the FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.) SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it. "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission. Asked what he thought of Western civilization, M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea". -- END ----------------------------------------------------------------------