Sex and The Law


 (12,:: Will ::) Ladies and gentlemen and children of all ages it gives me
 great pleasure to introduce Sir Edward!!!... who will tonight be
 discussing D&S and the Law.

 (12,Sir Edward) 'lo (smiling modestly)

 (12,:: Will ::) Would you please tell everyone a little about yourself?

 (12,Sir Edward) Thank you, my good friend Will.

 (12,Sir Edward) This maybe reptitious to some of y
 Former Attorney General of
 Alaska. Superior Court Judge pro tem. Trial Lawer extraordinaire...
 Journalist, columnist - dom and Master of the spendid Kay #1... er,
 splendid! (Freudian typo there) Let the fun and frolic start, Will?

 (12,:: Will ::) By all means! Unless anyone has a question or comment to
 start us off, I'll ask a question. No? Alright. I'd like to know if you're
 aware of any cases in which anyone was prosecuted for practicing d&S.

 (12,Sir Edward) Well first, let us see if we can all agree on a definition
 of D & S. May I call on Chiun to offer one, Will? ok? Thanks.

 (12,:: Will ::) By all means. Chiun?

 (12,Chiun) No. (grin)

 (12,Sir Edward) Okay - How about Ms.*A*?

 (12,Chiun) Actually, I'd narrow your question to ask about "practicing"
 vs. "Practicing for MONEY" There are LOTS of the latter, but few of the
 former cases.

 (12,:: Will ::) go ahead, Angelique

 (12, :: Angelique ::) To offer a definition of d & s or dominance and
 submission, also known to some as bondage and discipline or sadomasochism
 --it comprises various activities, primarily, though not exclusively,
 sexual involving a power exchange between partners where one exercises
 sexual control and the other submits to the dominant's will. Many, if not
 most, of these activities fall outside the range of what most laws
 consider normal sexual practice. Does that suffice?

(12,:: Will ::) Edward?

 (12,Sir Edward) I think that is excellent and I will accept it although we
 could spend the better part of the night quibbling over semantics. Just
 one slight dissent here: I do not consider D&S = B&D = S&M. In my book,
 consensual power transfer is synonymous with D & S. Bondage and Discipline
 are activities resorted to by the partners to D&S. S & M includes B&D but
 also other pain/pleasure activities.

 (12,Shiva) ?

 (12,:: Will ::) Yes, Shiva?

 (12,Shiva) Edward -- Is that a personal belief or a legal distinction ?

 (12,Chiun) !?

 (12,Sir Edward) My personal understanding - no legal definitions exist

 (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question and a comment?

 (12,Chiun) Yup. Since in practice if not in actual law the CONSENT is the
 issue (by which I mean that there ARE ancient blue laws against various
 sexual practices, but they're not enforced), how does the law DEAL with
 the issue of PROVING consent, as in cases of "after the fact" claims of
 rape/assault etc. etc. And does it ever come up in divorce cases, for
 example?

 (12,:: Will ::) Good questions, Chiun...Edward? Edward, did you get
 Chiun's question?

 (12,Sir Edward) Sorry I was dumped! Something about how do you prove
 consent after the fact?

(12,:: Will ::) Chiun, would you mind repeating the whole?

 (12,Chiun) Okay. I'll give a hypothetical to express it differently: You,
 Her, Moonlit Night....fun, games, a bit of bubbly, a bit of bondage, a bit
 of sex and spanking... And two weeks later when you tell her its over, she
 runs to the police with her still-red welts and cries rape/torture/
 assault, whatever. What the HELL do you do? And how does the automatic
 Bias of police/courts against "sickos" like you/us work against you?

 (12,Sir Edward) Okay. Need more facts. Had you just met her? If so, you
 are a fool to give her red welts that last two weeks, without a written
 consent. If you had an ongoing relationship, but no slave contract, you
 can prove consent by circumstantial evidence -old photos, letters,
 testimony of mutual friends.

 (12,:: Will ::) Edward, would you advise getting written consent before
 indulging?

 (12,Sir Edward) If you are going to beat the h*** out of her .. you'd
 better!  If you are just going to give her a good spanking and
 turn her pretty little a*s shocking pink - probably no problem.

 (12,:: Will ::) Hmmmm!  Lisle, you had a comment?

 (12,Shiva) ?

 (12,Lisle) Case in DC involving a man who did much as Chiun described--she
 ran out of the apt stark naked.

 (12,Sir Edward) And?

 (12,Lisle) Showed her welts to the neighors, got photos, and went to
 court. She won the assault case even though the guy argued consent.

 (12,Sir Edward) You're in trouble, friend. Pick your subs more carefully.

 (12,Lisle) Not I.

 (12,Sir Edward) I know. Only kidding!

 (12,Lisle) I always get written consent <grin>

 (12,Sir Edward) Written consent is fine - but not foolproof. She can
 always say THAT was coerced.

 (12,CHIUN) !!!!!?

 (12,Lisle) Not the way I do it

 (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question?

 (12,CHIUN) Yup. Come on now gang...let's get serious. How many people here
 have EVER found it romantic, enjoyable, or even POSSIBlE to say, just
 before beginning to play, "Oh, by the way, would you sign this consent
 form, dear?" In the REAL world, this does NOT happen...but being accused
 falsely does.

 (12,Sir Edward) Of course not. But then I don't whip a girl on our first
 date, either.

 (12,:: Will ::) Excuse me: would everyone please end their comments with
 GA (for Go Ahead) so that we don't have overlap? Thanks. Shiva, you had a
 question?

 (12,Shiva) Since the areas we are discussing deal with power, how do you
 prove consent? Even with writing you can say it was while coereced or
 under duress by the nature of the activity. GA

 (12,Sir Edward) Shiva, that's the very point I made. There is no
 foolproof legal protection. You pick your partner carefully; you respect
 limits and you do the best you can with building your case if the
 relationship gets out of hand. GA

 (12,Shiva) !?

 (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, I see you're next... what was your question? GA

 (12,Lisle) My understanding of the law on assault and battery is that
 consent is not needed if the authorities want to press the case. Is that
 true? GA

 (12,Sir Edward) Consent IS a defense, whether the sub prosecutes a civil
 claim or the State prosecutes. GA

(12,:: Will ::) Angelique, your question?  GA

 (12, :: Angelique ::) Edward, I was wondering if you're familiar with any
 of the cases that have come up in the recent past. For example, Marquise
 Marie was busted for practicing d&s at home and a number of clubs/bulletin
 boards/porno producers have been busted. Do you know whether there's been
 more of a trend towards harrassing d&s. And if so, why? ga

 (12,DAN) !

 (12,Sir Edward) Well, they have always hassled commercial establishments
 and Chiun is right - cops hate s&m - because so many of them are overtly
 or subconsciously sadistic. ga

 (12,Lisle) !

 (12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question and comment?  GA

 (12,Shiva) I agree with choosing your partners wisely. Then are we to
 understand that what the law prosecutes is not D/s but rather assault,
 battery, mental duress etc etc. GA

 (12,Sir Edward) Correct, Shiva. There is no specific law that I know of
 that proscribes any d&s activities only assault, prostitution, lewd and
 lascivious conduct etc. ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, I have you down for five comments and a
 question...go ahead. GA

 (12,Chiun) Okay....now then: Marquise Marie was busted on Prostitution.
 She was abused, yes, and her home wrecked, and the charge may or may not
 stick, but prostitution, NOT d/s, was the charge. NO porn producer has EVER
 been busted for d/s. NEVER. Busts have been for "obscenity", and, more
 recently, for using underage folks. To my knowledge (and it's amazingly
 extensive), the ONLY kind of charge vs. folks for doing anything having to
 do with d/s has been assault/daterape/etc, and even THEN, its NOT
 "Malicious D/S", its another legal charge. Therefore: My questions have
 not to do with the "letter' of law, since it doesn't exist where we're
 concerned, thank goodness. They have to do with prejudice/abuse/agressive
 prosecution of us BECAUSE of we do what we do, and because judges/
 da's/police think its particularly "sick". How do we protect ourselves,
 Ed? (I think that must be 5 comments and a question) (grin) GA

 (12,Sir Edward) No.1 - Professional doms and producers of substantial
 amounts of porn are at the highest risk. Private practitioners of D/s in
 stable relationships have really nothing to worry about. As far as
 protecting pros - that's a long story. I have advised many. Written
 consents. Signed statements "I am not a law enforcement officer etc.,
 audiotape recordings of sessions, etc. ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Dan, I believe you're next. GA

 (12,Joel & Allysse) ?

 (12,DAN) JUST A COUPLE COMMENTS--Marquise Marie was busted because she was
 dumb enough to have a written price list that included explicit sex acts
 in addition to d and s and the convictions of the porn producers for
 pandering have been reversed...paying people to have sex in a movie is not
 necessarily being a pimp ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Joel and Allysse?

 (12,Joel & Allysse) Recently I read of a case in CA of a sub who reported
 to the emergency ward for help with some deep bruises. This resulted in
 police intervention despite her telling the officers it was part of a
 voluntary act. Is this standard? Any ideas of how we can seek MD help
 without prosecution if needed ? GA

 (12,Sir Edward) Yes, the police will probably intervene in such cases and
 probably should. Personally, I am opposed to such severe activities, but I
 realize that some folks crave this kind of extreme treatment. The only way
 to avoid police intervention in such a case would be a sympathetic
 physician. ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question?  GA

 (12,Shiva) In some therapy sessions D/s has arisen as a topic: is the
 encouragment of that legal ? ga

 (12,Sir Edward) Since D/s is not illegal, "encouraging" it is not illegal
 either. Besides there is patient/therapist confidentiality. Please
 understand again, none of these activities between private, consenting
 adults are illegal or can get you in trouble - unless someone turns on you
 later. And there are ways to guard against that. We must also understand
 that D/s like many other legitimate activities has its darker side. E.g.
 the Steinberg case in NY. GA

 (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, you had a comment? GA

 (12,Lisle) Yes. I have been told that the state of NC prohibits any S&M
 activity between consenting adults and the state of Virginia prohibits any
 form of bondage, so too MD and DC. Are you aware of those laws. GA

 (12,Sir Edward) No, I am not aware of the laws in some of these more
 benighted jurisdictions. But it really makes no difference - if they can
 catch you, they can always fashion some charge. The point is what you do
 in your private bedroom usually does not come to the attention of the
 police or da - unless they are out to get you for political reasons. ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Angelique? GA

 (12, :: Angelique ::) Two questions. First: Edward, at least once or
 twice a year I hear a rumor that the FCC or some other agency is
 monitoring computer networks such as CIS for pornography and that the Feds
 are anxious to make a test case. Is there any truth to such rumors or are
 they merely paranoia...and if true, should the Feds crack down what laws
 would apply that might make us vulnerable? <this is q #1> ga

 (12,Sir Edward) As to whether it is happening... your guess is as good as
 mine. It would not surprise me, however, in the present climate.

 (12,Lisle) !

 (12,Sir Edward) As to what they can do - that is really a question for an
 FCC specialist - which I am not.

 (12,Lisle) May I take that one on?

 (12,Sir Edward) My guess is they probably could, particularly if telephone
 lines, satellites or broadcast facilities are used. Also, it would only
 take one turncoat or undercover subscriber to cause trouble. ga

 (12, :: Angelique ::) I'd like to know what Lisle knows.

 (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, Angelique is deferring her question in favor of
 your comment. Please go ahead. GA

 (12,Lisle) mail has the protection of or rather equal to US mail and
 cannot be monitored or intercepted and used as evidence except in the case
 of national security. Thus as long as the message originates within the
 states and stays within the states no federal agency may monitor a board
 or open communications such as the messages . To date the only
 thing the feds are concerned about is anything which might portray acts
 involving underage people. As to this kind of interactive communications
 that we are engaged in now the technical capability of even the federal
 govt could not handle all the data that is flying thru the air right now
 .... It is impossible! ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Please go ahead, Edward... and Angelique, ask your second
 question when he has finished, please. GA

 (12,Sir Edward) Thank you, Lisle. That was clear and concise. I might add
 that nothing we say here to night could expose anyone to risk of any
 kind, even if they could monitor. ga

 (12, :: Angelique ::) Ok: question #2, then....Edward, as a writer I enjoy
 writing erotica but worry about whether, in trying to sell it (either to
 mags or via the mails) I might not be exposing myself to legal risk. I've
 heard that postal clerks periodically answer ads in d&s magazines and then
 bust those that use the mails for distribution of pornographic materials.
 Shall I assume therefore that such a venue is legally risky for me? ga

 (12,Frank) ?

 (12,Sir Edward) That's a very gray area. I would think your MSs are safe,
 even if they sizzle (may I read one sometime? Just LEGAL interest/grin)...
 on the other hand a publisher might incur greater risk IF the material is
 adjudged "obscene." My own experience as an attorney for a publisher and
 producer of B&D mags and videos - the feds dont bother with you if you are
 not too big, stay away from youngsters or animals, and don't show too much
 by way of genitalia or genital contact ga

(12,:: Will ::) Frank, you had a question?  GA

 (12,Frank) In the example Angelique described, if the magazine was not
 distributed by mail in the first place would it not be a form of
 entrapment? ga

 (12,Sir Edward) No. Entrapment only works as a defense if the idea of the
 "crime" was planted or originated by the law enforcement officers. Where
 you have a commercial operation to begin with the law of entapment would
 not apply - assuming there was a crime committed. ga

 (12,:: Will ::) Lisle?  GA

 (12, Lisle) On entrapment...I heard of a case in Florida where the
 respondent answered an ad for a video and was sent by federal agents a
 video which was known by the federal agents to be kiddie porn ...in that
 the actresses were underage .... is that entrapment? His lawyer was M.
 Belli by the way and he lost the case. ga

 (12,Sir Edward) Entrapment of whom? And for what crime? ga

 (12,Lisle) The defendant for possession of kiddie porn--it was not
 advertised as kiddie porn however. GA

 (12,Sir Edward) I never thought Mel was a great criminal defense lawyer ga

 (12,Lisle) <smile>

 (12,Sir Edward) What kind of video did the fellow send for? If he asked
 for kiddie porn and got kiddie porn it was not entrapment - even if the
 agents sent a substitute tape. ga

 (12,Lisle) He did not ask for kiddie porn ga

 (12,:: Will ::) People, our time is up. I want to thank Sir Edward for a
 very informative and fascinating CO and all those who had such excellent
 questions and comments.

 (12,Joel & Allysse) Thanks SE

 (12,:: Will ::) The formal rules are off... CO has officially ended.

 (12,Shiva) Thank you Edward, Will.

 (12,Sir Edward) Hey, I love to play with this splendid group! Love and
 kisses!

 (12,Lisle) Thanks Edward

 (12, :: Angelique ::) Deepest thanks, Edward!

 (12,Sir Edward) Welcome!!!

 (12,Stoney) My compliments, SE

 (12,Joel & Allysse) <=== Can I kiss Ally now ???

 (12,:: Will ::) Kiss away, Joel! (Grin)

 (12,Joel & Allysse) Folks, I am off to find new legal frontiers in the
 D/s battle...SE, should I set up a contigency fee ??